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<  General 2.0  ~  Blame RPG on-line

PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:48 am
ExterminatorPosts: 100Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:38 am
Imagine you're walking up like in Log 12. (The Great Surf), Page 3-4, and you see a view like that in game. But no, instead of prerendered 2d or even low poly 3d surface, you get a true 3d view of that HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDs kilometer view in real time. Of course, LOD would keep the texture quality and stuffs low on that surface, but it would be a changing surface. Imagine a builder there, doing it's thing.

Heh, but creating views of full 3d unique long distance Megastructure shots would require a lot more than the piddle amounts of RAM and VRAM you get in even the next generation consoles....That is, unless you want a game that fogs out long distance or doesn't allow you the full dynamic experience of a environment the size of the Megastructure.. Remember, Killy shows off that super-bad-ass vision that allows him to see thousands of kilometers. Sick. That would be perfect for a game.

Nah, I'd bet any game of that scale wouldn't even run on today's computer.

I'd love that.



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:59 pm
ExterminatorPosts: 137Location: Valdivia, ChileJoined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:07 pm
Technically speaking, "fogging out" long distance is realistic. Even on the clearest, sunniest of days you can only see so far until the air itself "fogs out" the rest of your view. Not to mention the curvature of the Earth limiting what you can see on its surface (same thing would apply to the Megastructure, in theory). The point is how far you should draw before you fog out the rest, which, in games, is either decided by trial & error or left to the user. If Sony's claims about the PS3 are true (i.e. that Killzone video is actual in-game footage) I think it's more than feasible to render a Megastructure-like scene in real time. All the stuff that's really far away doesn't need to be drawn so frequently because the angle at which you're looking at it won't change drastically at the speeds you can move. Thus, using impostors that are refreshed with render-to-texture calls you can achieve a decent framerate without losing that much quality. Besides, you get free pseudo-anti-aliasing from texture filtering. If you get on a moving vehicle that travels pretty fast you don't use impostors but lower all scene detail except inside the vehicle and apply motion blur to everything outside.. Problem solved :D
Also, I don't think Killy's long-distance eyesight would be that much of a problem with proper LOD (level of detail) algorithms on everything (models, textures, animations, physics, AI, etc.) since your field of view decreases when you zoom in. Obviously as you zoom in, impostors would be replaced with the real deal in increasing levels of detail.


So now the question is... Who would want to spend millions of dollars funding the development of such a game?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:29 pm
Site AdminPosts: 322Location: GermanyJoined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:08 pm
Quote:
All the stuff that's really far away doesn't need to be drawn so frequently because the angle at which you're looking at it won't change drastically at the speeds you can move. Thus, using impostors that are refreshed with render-to-texture calls you can achieve a decent framerate without losing that much quality.

i already had exact that idea, rendering distant stuff to a skybox, but i wonder wether that gives any performance boost.
btw i'm still working on my attempt to a blame/cyberpunk game :)



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 am
HumanPosts: 23Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:02 pm
Yes it's true that the 3rd Generation consoles will never achieve the complexity and detail of the Blame! world. However, it can come close to it. Earlier i've seen this guy who was doing alot of CGI work with Blame!, and made a 1 and something movie that showed the very first scene of Blame in full CGI, and wow, it looks quite amazing. Also, to demonstrate the power of the PS3 engine, have a look at the Kill Zone 2 trailer, it's unreal, that's all I can say.

The reality is, instead of Blame! becoming a game itself, Blame! will become a benchmark, or a base for a new type of game genre of the Cybernetic Post Apocolyptic type.

I wish they'd just make it into an Anime movie already, animating is so much easier than CG rendering =/


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 pm
ExterminatorPosts: 137Location: Valdivia, ChileJoined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:07 pm
heeen wrote:
i already had exact that idea, rendering distant stuff to a skybox, but i wonder wether that gives any performance boost.
btw i'm still working on my attempt to a blame/cyberpunk game :)


Rendering distant objects to a skybox is not exactly what I was talking about. In my opinion, doing that is much more complicated because you'd have to transform into UV space to update the skybox and even then it could lead to artifacting near the skybox edges and corners.
I was talking about impostors, which are nothing more than camera-oriented billboards (two triangles forming a rectangle that rotates to face the camera) whose texture is updated with render-to-texture calls only when the angle you're viewing them at has changed beyond a certain threshold. It's like a cardboard cutout that updates itself with the real source model when you start looking around it.
You can also boost performance even further by not rendering the full detail model to the impostor if it's really far away. And you can also merge a group of impostors that are very close in screen-space into one impostor (this approaches your skybox idea).

PS: Yes! Now I'm an exterminator and my title matches my avatar! :D


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:56 pm
HumanPosts: 15Location: HungaryJoined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:09 am
Raadikins wrote:
Earlier i've seen this guy who was doing alot of CGI work with Blame!, and made a 1 and something movie that showed the very first scene of Blame in full CGI, and wow, it looks quite amazing.


Wow, I would like to see that! :D do you still have the url for it? I would apreciate that.
I only saw some renders from a french guy, and it was awesome... but looked a litle bit too clean...

About the Game, I think an Isometric view for the game would be mutch better. It should be an RPG, or Hack 'n' Slash (or sumthin... the genre name does not go with Blame). But seriously... an action game? Killy is mostly walking in the middle of nowhere. it wouldn't be blame, if Safeguards would be attacking Killy every minute... it would be helluve fun... but not Blame. The ideal genre wold be RPG... not too complicated... like Bards Tale for example... not so complicated like Baldurs Gate.

By the way, why is it, that there is no new genre in the gaming industry for like... 5 years? Blame could make a brand new gernre for example... i dunno what, but it woud be awesome! :-D


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:30 pm
Silicon CreaturePosts: 90Location: USAJoined: Tue May 31, 2005 2:10 pm
When I think of what a game for BLAME! would be like I think of the upcoming Shadow of the Colossus.
http://www.us.playstation.com/Content/O ... 7472/Site/
large open world
almost no dialogue
unclear story
questionable ethical actions
a very abstract game



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:31 am
HumanPosts: 23Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:02 pm
http://secret.identity.free.fr/arts/3D/ ... ec3ivx.rar Here is the fully CGII movie of the first section in chapter 1. I think it's done very well, graphically.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:22 pm
Silicon CreaturePosts: 90Location: USAJoined: Tue May 31, 2005 2:10 pm
Raadikins wrote:
http://secret.identity.free.fr/arts/3D/Blame/videos/ESRA_animation_Blame_codec3ivx.rar Here is the fully CGII movie of the first section in chapter 1. I think it's done very well, graphically.

http://www.heeen.de/blame/viewtopic.php?t=207
already a topic on that



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:51 pm
HumanPosts: 11Location: HongKongJoined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:31 pm
KevLar wrote:
When I think of what a game for BLAME! would be like I think of the upcoming Shadow of the Colossus.
http://www.us.playstation.com/Content/O ... 7472/Site/
large open world
almost no dialogue
unclear story
questionable ethical actions
a very abstract game



Wow, seems this game is really awesome! and the large scenes, the lonely main character (killy?), somehow has the feeling of BLAME
If the developing company will make one for BLAME..... it would be just PERFECT :twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:27 pm
Self Aware AIPosts: 167Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:01 pm
OMG I HAVE TO BUY THAT FREAKIN' GAME!!!! It is amazing!!! HMM I think it will f*ck up the playstation 2 hardware :?



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:53 pm
ExterminatorPosts: 115Location: Base Reality/Frozen TierJoined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:31 am
I don't think a MMORPG format would work well for Blame unless the gameplay experience was significantly altered. The mood of Blame is desolate, lonely and depressing, whereas MMORPGs are overrun with thousands of people, many of them shouting "DONAT GIL PLS!!!" and generally behaving in an idiotic fashion. That's not Blame.

The drawing style would be very difficult to incorporate into a 3D game. 3D graphics are very clean-cut, whereas Nihei's style combines clean-cut architecture with very messy characters and action. How do you model the dark inks and heavy black-and-white contrast in things like the gigantic explosions. The game would have to be black-and-white as well. I just don't see anyone developing that commercially. It would be extremely difficult to develop and I doubt it would sell.

A better idea would be to create an old-school stand-alone CRPG using the Fallout engine, or something similar.



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:58 pm
ExterminatorPosts: 137Location: Valdivia, ChileJoined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:07 pm
Oh come on! Don't be such a purist. Why the hell would the graphics have to be in black and white and use the same sketchy style as the manga? BLAME!-style things can be pulled off quite well with proper attention to detail even if it doesn't have the same "drawing" style. The BLAME! anime didn't have the same drawing style and it wasn't in b&w, but you could still recognize it as the BLAME! world; and that would be, by far, the most important visual trait a BLAME! game would require.

I agree on the MMORPG issue though. I'm also under the impression that the BLAME! world cannot possibly fit that format. Perhaps it could be a MORPG, but the first M (which stands for massively) has no place in the BLAME! world, in that there's never been a massive amount of characters at any given time (unless you intend to force most players to play as safeguard exterminators, which would suck ass. no one wants to be cannon-fodder for players with much cooler characters).
Hmm, although perhaps there is a way to use BLAME!'s toying around with space-time as a means for a pseudo-MMORPG. You'd have different versions of reality (which would be on different servers, probably) and you'd balance players among these so there wouldn't be a huge amount of characters in any version. The could travel between these via portals in Toha Heavy Industries or something.

Then again, I see another issue here: the RPG part. For this game to be a true RPG you'd have to start out as a crappy character, even crappier than Killy was at the start. He was always nearly invincible even if he took quite a beating several times. If there's no risk of dying, where's the fun? Maybe you could start out as one of the fishermen, or as a human, but in Musubi's timeframe so you could undergo a transformation similar to hers.

Okay, I'll stop ranting now.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:01 am
ExterminatorPosts: 115Location: Base Reality/Frozen TierJoined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:31 am
psiberpunk wrote:
Oh come on! Don't be such a purist. Why the hell would the graphics have to be in black and white and use the same sketchy style as the manga?


Well, the art style is the best thing about Blame!, for me anyway. If the MMORPG is going to look like Anarchy Online, you might as well not bother. The anime had a somewhat similar style, and it was far closer to the drawings of Nihei than any 3D engine I've ever seen.

As for removing the 'massive' part of MMORPGs, that is possible with current technology. Wrap every player in a bubble so that they inhabit different universes. I suppose it would take a lot of space to store all the world-states for each player, but it's possible.

Another idea would be to place each player in a separate isolated part of the City. The game world would have to be ginormous though. Then if the player succeeds in a quest to contact the Netsphere, he could meet other players (human virtual constructs) there in sleepy-land, and start to connect the isolated parts of the megastructure together. Finding another living human would be a major accomplishment in such a setup. That would be kind of cool.



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:55 am
ExterminatorPosts: 137Location: Valdivia, ChileJoined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:07 pm
Krypter wrote:
Well, the art style is the best thing about Blame!, for me anyway. If the MMORPG is going to look like Anarchy Online, you might as well not bother. The anime had a somewhat similar style, and it was far closer to the drawings of Nihei than any 3D engine I've ever seen.


Anarchy Online? God forbid! I was thinking more along the lines of the Source Engine (Half-Life 2) perhaps using cartoon shading for the characters. Anyway, given a level of technology comparable to the latest games (read: normal mapping, per-pixel lighting, dynamic shadows, etc.) what it really comes down to is how faithful the artists are to Nihei's vision. It might not be the same shading or line hatching style, whatever, but it's certainly possible to create a world and characters clearly recognizable as those of BLAME! and that is good enough for me.


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